We open the show speculating whether some of the greatest minds of the last century were secretly Taoists. Later, Dr. Totton teaches the basics of starting a meditation practice, and we end with a breakdown of Chapter Three of the Tao Te Ching.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00] [Music]
[00:30] Tod Perry: You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism, featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism and is mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn: What’s This Tao All About? Hello everybody and welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? My name is Tod Perry and here is Dr. Carl Totton, Sijo and we’re gonna continue our discussion on the Tao Te Ching today. What we’re gonna talk about our big stuff is chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching and we’re gonna talk about meditation a bit and we’re gonna open up a little bit. I’m gonna discuss some people throughout history that might have been seen Crit Taoists, some people who have said things that are, I think in line with the Tao, kind of quotes I’ve liked throughout my life. So I’m gonna run these by Carl and see what you think. Excellent. Alright, one of my first things is, it’s a George Bernard Shaw once said that life is not about finding yourself, it’s about creating yourself. Now is that, is that with the Tao? Because the Tao is a lot about finding
[02:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And so the art of finding verses creating, you know, building on to something, not sure. Yeah, you know in a way, it’s like a different way of saying something else. As so much is Tao. Tao, a lot of it has to do with discovering, uncovering what’s already there. Right. And then when you allow that to just manifest naturally to flow and And goes with the flow. Then one is at one with the process of ongoing discovery and creation. And so it’s not in the sense that we are thinking about something and planning it and then experimenting and trying this and trying that and creating something in that manner. It’s a way of uncovering something that has already been laid down. But because we’ve been so busy thinking Planning and scheming and manipulating, we lost it, we didn’t see it. It’s also like the act of creation and destruction is kind of simultaneous. Right? Yeah. And the Tao, everything is both being created, if you will, and being uncreated at the same time. Right. No. No. Every time anything is said or done, it’s there for that moment and then it’s gone. Right. Yeah. It’s gone, wu, where did it go? It’s gone, it happened. It’s like, quick, quick, too late, too late. It’s like, uh, it’s with the Dutch boy with the the wall and there’s a leak in the wall and he puts his finger in the wall and put his finger in the other one and then the other side of the water is coming through and this is not enough fingers and hands to, but that
[04:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Just let it be because if it leaks what we will also do, oh, the water all of the crops and then everybody will be fed. And so sometimes things have to allow space for things to happen and at the same time be mindful that there might be a plan. You might be a bigger picture. And too often, almost always we see things from what position our own narrow perspective. Almost every human being does that.
[04:30] Tod Perry: Unless we actively do something like meditation to counteract that and try to go on to bigger things. We’re gonna get to that in a minute. Meditation. Another great quote I’ve always liked is, life has become immeasurably better once I’ve been forced to stop taking it seriously. By Dr. Hunter S. Thompson. But I like reading Hunter S. Thompson’s work. And it’s very true that I every once in a while I look up around I go, you know, why am I taking life so serious when, you know, it’s fleeting, it’s going to go. I’ll be gone, I’ll be with the dust at a certain point or everything around this that I’m attached to. Life is a joyous experience and not to get too pulled down into the weeds and not
[05:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Walk through it with such heavy feet, I guess. Yes. Every moment is here for just the second. Then it’s gone forever. It’s gone forever. And yet what do we do? We try to cling to those moments. Like it’s a life raft or something. That’s somehow gonna save us. The cling to what happened just the second ago. Our job is to be fully present every moment and then let it go. Why? So that we can welcome
[06:00] Tod Perry: You’re a kid and you’re at like Disneyland or whatever. The whole day like this is just the best perfectest thing ever. And then you have that weird moment where you go, oh no, I’m gonna have to leave Disneyland. And then you don’t enjoy anything. It’s like on Sunday you go, oh I got work tomorrow. I’m at this we’re doing Sunday right now. I might have just ruined my day. But you know, oh man Is the nature of the Tao.
[07:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Something on a previous show we were discussing, I was saying to you, do you think that most people are walking around concerned with the bigger questions of life or asking what why they’re here or the meaning? And I was like, I’m sure people are just not talking about it and you said, no, no, maybe lots of people just kind of aren’t. You know? I agree, I think most people are just busy living their lives. Yeah. But unfortunately
[07:30] Tod Perry: Clinging to moments and trying to create or extend or just adjust or adapt to something that they miss the bigger picture. And often, the old saying you can’t see the forest for the trees are only too true. I found this great, it was like this sheet of notes by the jazz player, Thelonious Monk. Oh yes. And he had this whole thing of notes that he wrote for himself. It was almost like to reflect, you know, to Put himself in the zone when he’s playing music or you know just kind of true you know the true things he learned in life. And one thing he wrote was the inside part of the tune, the bridge you know your big change in the middle of the song is the part that makes the outside sound good. So if he puts in a big a big change in the middle of the song that takes you out of the your normal verse chorus it’s by going way out there The rest of the song then sounds fresh. Yes. It’s almost like I went to Hawaii a few weeks ago and the fact that I got out of my element, I took it way out there and I went to another place, different frame of mind. I came back and I
[08:50] Dr. Carl Totton: appreciated my normal everyday life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Often by going to the extremes, we absolutely learn to appreciate what we have here in the moment It gives us that sense of dimensionality that makes life seem richer. Right. Yeah. And also by contrast, here in a third dimensional world, in a world that is framed by yin and yang, if you will. It’s by exploring the things that look like their opposites of each other that we come to find the totality of our experience. Ultimately it’s really all one whole existence. We see the forest from the trees. Right. But most human beings, most of us can’t do that type of just being one with the flow and integrating all of the extremes simultaneously, moment by moment without clinging or holding on, few people can really do that. Yeah, no. You would probably become schizophrenic or either that or sage.
[10:00] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About? is recorded at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Check out the TaoistInstitute.com. See there’s schedule of classes including Taoist meditation, kung fu and qigong. That’s TaoistInstitute.com. Alright, so let’s get into this here. Let’s talk a little bit about meditation. And I know you teach meditation classes right here at the Taoist Institute. Oh, yes. Now my big question is I’ve, I’ve, from time to time sat and attempted to meditate. I’ve had a couple positive experiences with it. I haven’t integrated into my daily life. And, and one of the questions I always have is, I feel like there’s different forms of meditation, right? And different ones like there’s like transcendental meditation and you gotta pay 1500 bucks to learn it. And I always go, is that a scam or is it, you know, why don’t they just make this available to everybody? You know, why don’t they reveal their secret, you know?
[11:30] Dr. Carl Totton: You want? Oh great, yeah. That’s awesome. Just on tell anyone. Yeah. Our little secret. This is how publicly now come. So is there a better way in order to say what is the difference in the different forms of meditation, if you will? Or is it just all the same thing that people are calling different? No, it is an all just the same thing. People have been trying to kind of solve this riddle about who am I, And where am I going? In other words, what is the meaning of life? And almost everyone, sooner or later comes to the realization that all of this doing and trying and thinking and thinking and overthinking is taking me away from realizing this essence of what is the meaning of my life. And so sooner or later, people around the world for thousands of years have realized that unless I sit quietly And so all cultures and peoples and spiritual groups have at one point or another come to the realization that they have to alter something about what they’ve been doing. It’s in the doing and overdoing and overthinking while overdoing where we get lost. So I think that ultimately meditation is really a very natural state. It’s what happens before we start doing. It’s what happens before we start talking and thinking. And our thinking of course is always in what? Words, right? And words as we know, words are a representation of something, they’re not the thing. And so meditation is to try to get to the thing.
[13:30] Dr. Carl Totton: And so if you’re talking and thinking too much, it’s going to be very difficult to realize the nature of what underlies our existence. And so that’s what meditation is for. Now, there are 100 ways about knowing more than that, a thousand ways to actually try to do that. Essentially, meditation can be divided in general into active forms of meditation and more Past of forms of meditation. Act of forms of meditation, you do something. Maybe you chant something. Maybe you focus on something. It might be something even very peaceful like focusing on a cloud drifting across the sky or a river flowing down the stream. But so something grabs your attention and as something grabs our attention and we begin to follow that, track that, guess what happens? As that immersion increases the internal chatter that self-talk does to decrease. I could use that. Yes, we can all use that. So that’s actually very useful. So that’s active. That’s active meditation. Because you’re doing something in order to decrease our attachment to what we usually do. Which is doing and thinking and planning and on and on and on. Okay. What’s your…it’s actually probably more difficult. You know, is it more rewarding because it’s more difficult? Not necessarily. You know what they say? All roads lead to Beijing or Hong Kong or Rome or someplace, right? So, however one gets there, it’s fine. As long as you get…again, return to the source. Okay. So passive forms of meditation, it’s more difficult because sometimes people will tell you what, I’m sure
[15:30] Dr. Carl Totton: of nothing but who can do that? I’ve thought of nothing like four times in my life. And then I go, I’m thinking about nothing. Right. And so typically what is easier for people is to think about something different than what they ordinarily are thinking about. So again, it might be a word, it might be a breath. You know what I tell people to do? What’s going on in your mind right now? Oh, okay, that’s interesting. Now, look at that. Watch those thoughts. And while you’re watching those thoughts, what’s going on in your body right now? Notice that too. Don’t think about it. Just notice it. Oh, how about your breath? You notice that? Oh, okay, just notice that. So, as you sit here and you’re noticing your mind and you’re noticing your body and you’re noticing your breath, what part I don’t know. Great. Now, just stay with that experience and just see where that takes you. And now I’ll put on some nice music. I’ll turn out the lights. I have a black light here. I’ll put on black light and it looks kind of mysterious and kind of kind of, no it’s really soft in there. And what happens is that people get so engaged in this exercise and really mindfulness. You know, being able to not be In your body, in your breath, but rather coming from a place where you are all of these things simultaneously without having to divide and separate them. At that moment, an amazing thing happens. We stop thinking. You might realize, I know this has happened to you. Haven’t you been driving sometimes on the freeway and you noticed that, gosh, I just drove the last
[17:30] Dr. Carl Totton: 10 miles and I didn’t have one thought in my mind about driving. Yes. It’s the same thing in meditation. How did I get here? How did I get here? Why am I in the valley? Like I was in the valley. I switched lanes, I avoided cars obviously, I drove the speed limit, I wasn’t bumping into people, I didn’t drive off the road and I did not have one thought about driving. The same thing happens in
[18:00] Tod Perry: You can just be. Right. It’s beautiful. So, about let’s see. So if I wanted to kind of start going towards that place, just by myself, at my house, you know, maybe woke up in the morning, had a cup of coffee, and then I get ready to go to work and I want to take this 20 minutes to get to that state. What are the kind of real simple ways to get into that? I always talk people,
[18:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Natural state. I think a lot of what we do and say and think all the time is really quite unnatural. Okay. Alright. And so there’s something that pervades that, that’s beneath that and above that and beyond all of that. Something that just is. Right. And so the easiest way. That’s the easiest way. You know, my teacher taught me when I, the first day of meditation, my Taoist teacher, he said, just said and Observe your breathing. Feel the air come in. Feel the air come out. Just notice that. Just watch that. And as I watch that and then began to just watch my thoughts and watch my body. Maybe I had some imagery in my mind. Maybe I was remembering something and event. Do you try to then stop that or do you just let it play out? You just watch it. You just observe it. You don’t participate in it. You just let And now you’re back to square one. You’re out of it. You’re out of it because you’re too into it. Right. Okay. So it’s a matter of this. It’s interesting because on one hand, people always say that to meditate, you have to do what? You have to focus. You have to concentrate. You hear that all the time. It’s a brilliant experience. And when that will kill meditation
[20:00] Tod Perry: Cold for me.
[20:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Ultimately, we’ll be capable of. It takes a while, just like anything else. It took you a while to learn how to ride a bike, drive a car. Anything. And it’s the same thing. But once you’ve kind of groove that pathway into this deeper aspect of the self, it definitely becomes easier and easier. And you know what? You like it. Because you like it, you want to do it more. So so much better than Dorfins in my brain. Why do I not do this every day? But at first it does what? It’s a pain. It hurts. It hurts. I walk up a trepago. Oh my sore back. This is gonna hurt. We actually move into a state of what’s often called pure awareness, where a whole other world opens up inside of us. Busy doing those other things, there’s an entire dimension of experience that will miss. That will miss. That is in everyone. It’s in every human being. It’s in a we’re all part of the Tao. One spirit. And so the Tao being vast, having no beginning, having no end, existing on all dimensions throughout time and space, can you imagine? No, you can’t imagine. It’s beyond our imagination. How much there, how rich and how deep this experience of this domain actually contains. Okay. And so meditation, every time we do it, we’re allowed entry into another, another little corner of experience in that realm. And it is so rich and so nurturing that it’s like tasting pure honey years. Right. It’s so sweet. I love it. Okay. So I was reading a book and it was,
[22:30] Tod Perry: See, this is me. I read all these books, right? But the practice and the discipline of the practice, it alludes me. But it was a book called, Catching the Big Fish by a filmmaker, David Lynch. And he was saying that when he… Oh, he’s good. Yeah. When he started meditating, he realized as a creative person that the big fish were at the deeper levels, the big fish, the big ideas, that he And he was working and bringing into his art. He would meditate and the deeper he got, the bigger and more nurturing the fish were. Is what he said when he would dip into it. And I thought that was a wonderful metaphor for what I should strive for when attempting this
[23:20] Dr. Carl Totton: practice. So, what’s the best time to meditate is it in the morning at night? Anytime. Anytime. I mean, everybody’s, you know, their lives are different They have zugging things to do and they don’t have time and so the evening or night before they go to bed is a better time. You know, ultimately, I think we want to get to the point where meditation is not this separate experience where we have to, it’s only when we’re sitting down doing meditation that we are engaging in meditation. We would like meditation to just become part of our natural, normal state of being. Because that’s what meditation is It’s a state of expanded awareness, awareness of what? Awareness of what is? Well, what is? Well, you’ll know when you find it. Ah, that’s a nice way to go out on it. Do you have any more words on meditation? Just that don’t complicate it. It’s very simple. And our tendency, particularly here in the West, is to complicate things. And you’ll find books and books and books and things Written on how to meditate. And there’s all these different ways and so a seeker can get very easily confused. Yes. Because every many of the books say something very different. But if we remember that meditation is a natural state and it’s a state of immersion into what is. Because a lot of what we’re doing is an avoidance of not doing and meditation is definitely associated with not doing.
[25:00] Tod Perry: We’re doing less. Doing less. The minimal of us. Yeah. Because when you get to zero, where you’re not doing anything, then you can finally live and be everything. Is it kind of like if you look at an hourglass, right? You have the stuff at the top of the hourglass and they have that real thin waste, right? And then you have a different thing on the other side. Where we’re normally on the top of the hour
[25:30] Dr. Carl Totton: That there’s a whole other vessel of consciousness or whatever it is. Is it like that? At that moment we are fully in tune and in touch with the Tao and we are just filled with inspiration. It’s almost like a download from the field of consciousness, a field that we are part of but because we’re so busy, we’re not aware of it. Once we let go of those expectations and just immerse ourselves, In the Tao, the richness of that fills every moment. And at that moment, those questions, those eternal questions, who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? And where am I going? The answers become crystal clear. And that’s precious. You can’t buy that. Let’s move on to The chapter of the Tao Te Ching today. We’re gonna do chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching. Who’s a meditative existence? Not just a practice, but a meditative existence as a prescription for living wisely. And so in chapter three, it’s very short, almost all of them are, is he says not exalting the gifted prevents quarrelling, not collecting treasures prevents stealing, not seeing desirable things, prevents confusion of the heart.
[27:30] Dr. Carl Totton: What’s he talking about here? And then he goes on and he says, the wise, therefore, rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies. By weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. If people lack knowledge and desire, then intellectuals will not try to interfere. If nothing is done, then all will be well. So this letting go of attachment from the heart or the mind while focusing on essentials like health, eating, right? right. allows things to kind of just settle into place and define their own innate rhythms. You know, every organism has a rhythm and the rhythm is trying to do what is trying to ensure survival. Through adaptation to create homeostasis, balance. And if we can do that then everything just flows and everything is beautiful and everything is fine. But look around. Is everything just flowing? Is everything just beautiful? And is everything just fine? No. And therefore things since so much is being done that is not in a course. Or with our inner natures, people aren’t feeling what they need. They’re feeling that what they’re doing is meaningless. Or has a meaning maybe to someone, some things, some outside entity but not to them. It’s not the heart’s desire. Then they wind up feeling dissatisfied. No matter how much money they’re making, you know, no matter how much of the material external rewards they may be getting, they’ll at a deep level.
[29:30] Dr. Carl Totton: If you ask them they will tell you something is missing. I feel like I’m just spending my wheels. And yeah I’m doing everything that everybody says I should be doing. And there’s nothing is gaining traction. It’s not, you know, it’s not amounting to anything besides you know, paying the rent. Yeah, and life is a lot more than going to work and paying your bills. Yes. I assure you. And so he says if people lack So we’ll not try to interfere. If nothing is done, then all will be well. Now the intellectuals trying to interfere. What is that relate to? Well, there are always people in every society who try to guide what people are doing by claiming that they know best. The intellectuals. The intellectuals. Often it’s politicians, critics, who are offering critiques about society. I’m sure people would call him a big thinker in a way but yet he’s constantly advising us to do what? Not think, right? Not think so much. And so here maybe the biggest thinker of them all is saying don’t think. And what was the very first thing out of his mouth in the Tao Te Ching? The Tao that can be spoke with. And is not the eternal Tao. Right. And what are our thoughts? Words. Words. Right. So the very first words out of his mouth are don’t trust this. Right. Don’t trust this. And don’t trust the authorities that are trying to tell you how to live your life. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Trying to push you one way or the other. Exactly. There’s so many levels of abstraction away from the immediacy of what he taught.
[31:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Person is experiencing. And every person has to be the arbiter of their own experience. Nobody else can tell you what you are experiencing, what you should be experiencing, what you’re thinking, what you should be thinking, what you’re doing, what you should be doing. Nobody has that authority to do that, unless you give it to them. Unless you give it to them. And unfortunately, if you look at the history of the world, what do we see? People are very willing to give up to the author. And then authorities are more than willing to try to take control through power and manipulation in order to attain more material goods. Or even worse power over others. Power over others so they can increase their gain of material goods. And so now look at the world. We’re in a crisis. We’re in environmental crisis. We’re in economic crises. We’re certainly in political crisis. It’s sad in many, many respects to see how far away we’ve gotten from this self-regulation, this homeostasis, this balance, we’re all organisms, especially us, getting our needs met and we’re filled and creative. It’s about creativity. You know, I tell everybody, the most important thing that you have is your imagination. Because think about it for me. And this fuels it, I feel. Yeah, I agree. Because if you look at human history, has not every advance come through imagination. Yes. Every single thing. We thought being the caves, right? We didn’t have imagination. If someone didn’t look out there and go, you know what? We could do
[33:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Fish was cooked. Yeah, right, yang. See, it allows us to creatively meet our needs in a fuller manner. And by unleashing greater creativity, you’re gonna unleash a greater more creative, you know, better society. Yes, for us. Yes, it’s a living. So I’m advocating for what? A new Renaissance. Yes. We need a new Renaissance. Right, yeah. A creative liberation. Yeah, the creative liberation of the human spirit I’ll take up a banner and wave it behind you. It’s like be free, be free. But to do that we have to claim and own our freedom. And too often society conspires to get us to subvert our freedom. To give up our freedom. I think it’s a natural state of having it subverted to begin with and then realizing it later in life. You know, not to say that I’ve come to some great point. I’ve completely gotten, you know, gotten, become liberated from all the structures around me. But I’m just saying, yeah, you do get to a certain point where you see the matrix. Yes. You know, you see the cage that you’re in and then you realize two things. One, number one, I’m in a cage. Somehow I’m restricting my life. I’m constricting and restricting my life. I’m in a cage. Now, where And most important, who has the key? And is it some force out there? Is it somebody else? Did I give somebody else the power to confine me? And therefore my liberation is dependent on them, some external authority or some intellectual or better and worse at the same time that I lock myself in this cage. And I’ve got the key and I’m not liberating myself.
[35:30] Tod Perry: Oh my goodness. What do I do to myself? I mean with the moment you see that, you go, oh no now I have a response to my self to enact that to fully unlock that cage. 100% responsibility to do that. That’s daunting. That is very scary. Scary for me, I think it’s probably scary for most people.
[36:00] Dr. Carl Totton: This writing is like the Tao Te Ching. Really is to ultimately give each human being courage that there are other people who have gone down this path, down this road and we know how difficult it is and we support you. You’re not crazy to think that you want to get out of your cage and be real. That’s great and we support that. Wonderful. You’re not alone. Yes. So do we have any takeaways for this week? Tickle stuff that people can get into before our show comes out next week. Things to think about. Well, I always like to give a practice, of course. Yes. Because practice makes perfect. Yes. And so a nice exercise is to simply notice what you have in your life that you personally are grateful for. Every day, every day you should get up and think. Hmm. What do I have to be great for people? For Rather than the lack of abundance. Because when you’re feeling lack, you tend to attract what you’re feeling. So you’ll just attract more lack. And number two, you’ll never be satisfied. You’ll never be satisfied. You have to choose to be satisfied. So just appreciation of the simple things, synthesizes us to the natural beauty of life as it is. Just as it is.
[38:00] Dr. Carl Totton: At the sunrise, how about the smile on a baby’s face? The gracefulness of a cloud, the sound of a court of music, the taste of good food. All of these little appreciations bring joy to life and went overlooked because we’re pursuing the big things, then life tends to lose its vitality and we wind up feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. Let go and let it be. Just let it be what it is.
[38:30] Tod Perry: You’re like it! Awesome, well, for this week it’s time to let it be and we’re gonna let this show be for right now and we’ll be back next week with more What’s This Tao All About and preview for next week’s show. Now we’ll just let you see what happens. We’ll talk you soon. Thank you.
[38:56] Tod Perry: To learn more about the show, check us out online at WhatsThisTao.com. Akan, Fall The Show on Twitter at What’s This Tao? Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking readers.
[39:30] [Music]
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