Episode 1 — The First Step

In the first episode of What’s This Tao All About?, Tod Perry sits down with Dr. Carl Totton, founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California, to explore a mysterious question: What is Taoism? 

This first conversation (of many!) also covers Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, with the cryptic message: “The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.” Along the way, Tod shares how The Tao of Pooh first sparked his interest in Taoism, while Dr. Totton reflects on his background in psychology, martial arts, meditation, and Chinese philosophy. 

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] Tod Perry: Now, how should I, what is your official title here? Because? And then which one?

[00:10] Dr. Carl Totton: Well, I have lots of titles.

[00:12] Tod Perry: You know, um, what would be the good one for this? Because if I just call you Carl, it has less weight. And you don’t have to say, it’s like Grandmaster Carl people are like, whoa, this can be show. Carl says what the grandmaster Carl was way more than people will fill up. They’re doing.

[00:32] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. I guess I got lots of titles. You know, my students, you know, they call me a Sijo, which means kind of like founding Grandmaster. Oh, wow. I was the founding grandmaster of my particular system. I’m a doctor, a licensed clinical psychologist, my clients, patients call me Dr. Totton.

[00:58] Tod Perry: Oh, okay.

[00:59] Dr. Carl Totton: Some people have called me, you know, Reverend, Reverend Dr. Totton, professor. I’m a chair of a department of psychology, so they’re a professor, Totten, you know, so I have, I have a zillion titles. And I like Sijo.

[01:16] Tod Perry: I like Sijo. I like Sijo too. I think that sounds Sijo.

[01:29] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About?

[01:30] [Music]

[01:39] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About?

[01:42] [Music]

[01:49] Tod Perry: You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism, featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry, who knows a little about Taoism. And it’s mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn. What’s This Tao All About?

[02:10] [Music]

[02:20] Tod Perry: Sijo. Explain to me in the audience what is Taoism?

[02:31] Dr. Carl Totton: That’s a great question. I hope there’s a great answer too. You know, so I mentioned to you that some old man came into my school once many years ago and just to get out of the sun, I’m sure. And I have a place to sit down. And he’s very hot. Hot here. Yeah, it’s warm here in the valley. So he was sitting down. He’s looking around. He’s going, what is this place? And so I tried to explain, well, you know, this is a school where we teach things that come from the philosophy of Taoism. You know, I teach Tai Chi and I teach about philosophy in Chinese medicine and all of these things, you know, have to do with balance and harmony and being in touch with yourself in nature, you know, things like that. And he goes, well, that’s very interesting. But what’s this Tao all about? And he kept asking that question, what’s this Tao all about? And so I often try to ask myself because people call and text me and you get a text saying what is the Tao? Well, what is Tao? And as we know, Lao Tzu or someone or someone, many centuries ago wrote a book of the Tao, the Tao Te Ching, supposedly explaining what’s this Tao all about? Right. I think we have a name for our show here. What’s This Tao All About? I’ve been thinking about writing a book with that title, actually, but I think it’s kind of cool. Yeah. And it’s kind of like a Tao, depending on how it’s translated. It means something like the way or the path or a road. It’s really kind of a series of ideas, concepts, precepts, if you will, about how to live a life that’s balanced and harmony with one’s own nature and with the greater nature. One of the things Taoist always look at, I think, really nicely is the big picture, the macrocosm and the little picture, your life, your thoughts, your feelings, your existence, the microcosm and how those two things connect and balance each other. I think is something that every human being has questions about what human being, thinking human being, because some human beings don’t really think much. But what thinking human being doesn’t have questions about, who am I? Am I here? What’s the purpose of my life? Where did I come from? And where am I going? And I think that, in my opinion, that’s what the Tao Te Ching is here to give us, not an answer, but guidelines for each individual to really find those answers for themselves. There are no Taoist evangelists. They won’t come to your door, asking for, you know, you to believe anything or asking for handouts on Saturday morning or something. You’ll never find a Taoist anywhere in the world doing that. There are very few Taoist establishments out there, and at least in the United States, I dare you to go to find a Sunday service on Taoist something. The thing I liked, I was reading a book, I was studying up for this podcast, and what I

[05:48] Tod Perry: really enjoyed is, again, there’s no evangelizing, there’s no punishment for not getting what– I mean, the punishment is maybe leading a less fulfilling life. But the idea of the Taoist is that it’s basically, here’s this book, try it, it will work for you, and you will continue practicing it. It’s no– If you don’t practice this, you’re going to burn in hell, or you’re not going to go to heaven, or anything like that. It’s just like, this works, try it out, people dig it. And I find that much more comforting than here, you know, carrots and sticks. I’m going to whack you with a stick if you don’t get into this. How do you genuinely learn something if it’s on the other end of punishment? It’s not a genuine experience, I feel, but this is like, yeah, take it, I’ll leave

[06:40] Dr. Carl Totton: it. Exactly, exactly. You know, Taoism is very strange in one sense, most philosophical and spiritual and certainly religious practices have a set of beliefs. And if you don’t believe in these things, then something negative is going to probably happen to you. And certainly you won’t gain admission into the exalted status of being a follower of their system unless you testify, sometimes literally, that you believe, I believe in this and I believe in that. Taoists have none of that. But instead this idea that there are certain things about this world, about this universe, that are constant. For example, one day follows the next. We know that this day has a beginning, it’s going to have a middle, it’s going to have an end and then seamlessly it blends right into the next day. And every day the sun rises, thank goodness. So far it has, so far, so good. I’m not betting on it tomorrow, no, no. Billions of years, you know, the world has turned, the sun is spinning around and so there are repeatable patterns that we know. And when it’s hot, what should we do? We should probably do something to make sure that we stay relatively cool. When it’s freezing cold, we probably need to do something to get a little bit warmer. These ideas, that notion, what I just mentioned, as the Chinese would say, in and young, in something that’s more cool, that’s more quiet, that’s more gentle, young, something that’s more fiery, warmer, hotter, active activity, the sun, the moon, the day, the night. These notions are part and parcel of really what allowed to the purported writer of the Taodet Qing, I think was getting at. And if we can live our life in harmony with these ongoing natural cycles, we’re going to be much more fulfilled. We’re going to be happier. And if we don’t, if we cling to one end or another, no, I only want the day, I only want the hot, I only want, you know, that’s beginning to sound familiar too, I want this, I want that, and I need something to be a certain way. Once we get attached to extremes, one end or the other, that’s when life tends to become very unfulfilling and challenging. And I think that the Taodet Qing for centuries now has given us kind of a little gentle nudge in the right direction. Yeah, again, there’s no hard and fast rules in this text, but there are gentle nudges

[09:37] Tod Perry: to think about things. Now, do you find that it, because there aren’t all hard and fast rules, that it’s actually almost more difficult for someone to be with a cultivator of the Tao versus the House shall not do this, shall not do that. And have this really rigorously prescribed way of living versus how am I going to find harmony in today? How am I going to be grateful today? How, you know, it feels much more challenging, but then again, maybe it’s more worth it in some way, if it is more challenging.

[10:10] Dr. Carl Totton: I agree, it is more challenging, because, you know, I’m famous psychologist, Eric Frum, years ago, wrote a book called Escape from Freedom, Escape from Freedom, where he said that, you know, mankind’s natural state of being should be free, to be free. But yet we run from it with a passion. We want other people or some other system or some book to tell us exactly what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s true, what’s false. And we escape, we don’t want the responsibility, the total overwhelming, awesome responsibility of having to find that out for ourselves. And so we give up our freedom to other people, to other systems, to authorities, to tell us what’s real for us. And in my opinion, what the Tao did, what the Tao has always done is said, look, it’s all about you. It’s about you existing as a consciousness in this universe. As far as you are concerned, the only reason this universe exists is because of you. If you weren’t here, none of this would exist for you. And so if you are in fact the kind of source of your universe, then who is there out there to tell you how to live your life and what to do and what’s right and what’s wrong and what’s reasonable and what’s not reasonable. Now if you are conscious and paying attention, you’re going to get feedback from others and from your environment about what’s working, what’s furthering. And there’s a famous Taoist saying, everything furthers, everything furthers.

[12:00] Tod Perry: Was it that the Ken Kesey, like the Merry Pranksters, or whatever, they had the bus, it was further, I think was the name of the bus or the license plate or something. Keep going. Keep keeping on. So if you were to, you know, at the onset of this series of podcasts, we’re going to put out, would there be a way that you could see that man again that comes up to your temple, where we’re sitting right now in Temple, North Hollywood and say, what’s this Tao all about? Could you do it in a sentence? Could you do it in three sentences and quickly sum up what it is for someone who just grabbed this podcast out of nowhere, said, thought to themselves, what’s this Tao all about? You know, are they going to talk in circles? Are they going to give me the answer here? You know?

[12:53] Dr. Carl Totton: Well, I don’t know about answers, but we certainly will give, I think the Tao certainly offers direction and guidance. Now let’s go to the book for a second. What is the very first thing out of Lao Tzu’s mouth in the Tao Te Ching? The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

[13:12] Tod Perry: What? Yeah. Right off the bat, he’s telling you that I can’t tell you what this is.

[13:19] Dr. Carl Totton: And so if Lao Tzu can’t tell us what this is, far be it from little, me. Right. You try to tell you what the Tao is all about. So we’re going to point in the direction of the Tao is what we say. We can definitely point in the direction of the Tao and then you, you will tell me what your Tao is all about. What your way is all about. You know, one thing that is absolutely true is that not one human being on this earth is exactly like any other human being on this earth. Correct. Not one day on this earth is exactly like any other day on this earth. But one second is exactly like any other second that ever existed out of trillions and trillions. Now what are we supposed to do with that? The fact that everything is in constant flux, everything is continuously changing. And in fact, the ancient Tao is said many times over that the only constant in life is change. But yet we as human beings, we hate it. We can’t stand change. We give a lip service to it. Oh, I like to change. I like to get better. I like to this. We’re lying. We hate change. We want to say exactly the same because there’s comfort and familiarity. Yes. You know, if you have a place to live and you go back home today and it’s still there and kind of looks the same way and hasn’t burned down or something, you probably feel pretty good about that, right?

[14:48] Tod Perry: I was getting frustrated with myself at a certain point where I thought, I’d like to be a more consistent human being, right? And then I thought, how ludicrous of an idea is that really to be, in a world of constant flux, with me, I just want that comfort of being a consistent person who maybe wakes up at the same time every day, that maybe is in, does all the things to put himself in the correct mood? But you’re really kind of chasing the dragon. And I think to myself, other people feel very consistent to me, right? Why am I feeling incances? And I realize it’s probably internally to them, they’re just as kind of wild and inconsistent as one would think. What’s this Tao about is recorded at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California? Check out the Taoastistute.com. See there’s schedule of classes, including Taoist meditation, Kung Fu, and qigong. That’s Taoastistute.com. Before we’re going to get into a little bit later, we’re going to get into a chapter of the Taoaging. But before we get into that, just for people who just chimed in, for the first time checking out this show, I am talking to, what was the title we, that maybe I decided on, was it Sijo? Sijo. Sijo. I’m talking to Carl Totton. And you are a man of many different, I said, how should I refer to you on the show? And you said, I have many titles. If you could list them, just so the people know who the heck we’re talking to and whether they should actually listen to us. I was born in Los Angeles.

[16:51] Dr. Carl Totton: One of the few has it apparently seems. Yeah, oh yeah, nobody hears from here.

[16:55] Tod Perry: Everybody’s from someplace else. My parents moved here, I think, around 1940, something like that.

[17:01] Dr. Carl Totton: My mom 100 years old, actually, should be 101 this year.

[17:06] Tod Perry: Oh wow. So I must have good genes. Yeah, longevity’s in there somehow. Does she attribute it to anything? She wanted these people, there’s always a thing they go, how’d you live to be 100 of the guy, bacon everything? No, right? And then they, you know, the minute they quit eating bacon, that’s been a great break for cuz, you know?

[17:24] Dr. Carl Totton: I think she has a lot of people who love her and I think that has something to do with her longevity. Yeah. So I was born in LA, went to local schools here, eventually became interested in psychology. I got my bachelor’s and master’s degrees in kind of the helping professions, then got a doctorate in clinical psychology, and actually kind of a Christian university, Pepperdine.

[17:47] Tod Perry: Okay. Yes, well done.

[17:49] Dr. Carl Totton: Did my doctoral dissertation on meditation and altered states of consciousness, that was fun. So as they were to put together, my chief interest, well, you know, the dial, Taoism and meditation and Buddhist and Zen meditation, I was able to investigate that from a psychological perspective.

[18:05] Tod Perry: Wow. Like how can meditation help people and meditation even be harmful?

[18:10] Dr. Carl Totton: I wrote a whole district about that. Oh, I’d left, okay.

[18:13] Tod Perry: We could talk about that later. We’ll talk about that sometime, because my dissertation is interesting.

[18:18] Dr. Carl Totton: I can actually stand to read it. People actually buy my dissertation, they find it interesting to read. But in the meantime, since about 15 years old, I started studying martial arts because what kid, 15, doesn’t want to learn about self defense, right?

[18:34] Tod Perry: Or Bruce Lee, right? Bruce Lee, you’re going, hey, that’s cool.

[18:37] Dr. Carl Totton: I want to be able to do that. I want to be, you know, there’s this kind of thing that I think in every 15 year old, maybe other people are like, you want to be a superhero, right?

[18:44] Tod Perry: Exactly. And it’s almost like through spirituality, through martial arts, it’s the closest we can

[18:50] Dr. Carl Totton: come to that in a way. Yeah, exactly. It’s a close sense. You can’t find a, you know, Taoist church out there, but you can find these people who know martial arts and a martial art that maybe has been influenced by people who were Taoist priest and Taoist teachers. And so I found a martial arts teacher and it just so happened that a lot of his teachers were very learned. One of them was a Taoist priest from China. One of them was, had studied with the chief abbot from the Shaolin temple in China, which is a Zen Buddhist monastery. Another one of my teachers turns out to be a doctor of Chinese medicine, in fact, several of them are. And all of Chinese medical theory is permeated with ideas from the Tao. Completely. And so as time went on, I learned that, you know, there’s more here than just punching and kicking and even health and exercise and self-defense. There’s this philosophy here. There’s a root of it. So yeah. Yeah, that’s given me information about how to think about myself, how to think about my life, because it’s really easy, I think nowadays, to get confused by life. You know, we have all these religious and philosophical and spiritual systems out there, but yet, look at the world. It’s a complete disaster. It’s a mess. And I think nowadays, we have people turning away from a lot of those traditional sources of religion and philosophical and spiritual systems. And they’re looking for something else. And that something else, the first time I read the Tao Te Ching, I went, well, there is something here that I can feel.

[20:35] Tod Perry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[20:36] Dr. Carl Totton: I’m not sure exactly what it is, but I can feel it. And then I’m reading that this is the most widely translated book in the world after the Holy Bible and I’m going, you know, there must be a few other people that feel the same way I do. And so as time went on, you know, I became a teacher, I became a black belt, there was a training program at my school that taught about Taoism and taught about philosophy and taught about meditation and qigong, you know, the kind of the Chinese word for yoga and meditation. And since my teacher’s also knew about herbs and Chinese medicine and acupuncture, I received a broad education and a lot of things.

[21:19] Tod Perry: And so wow, I was just saying I was like from psychology, the Dao Kung Fu, that’s, you know, mind, body, soul, the whole package, you know, I was very fortunate. I came to the Dao because I was about 20 years old and when, you know, I was raised very staunch Methodist Christian home. And so I always had part of me that was, you know, knowledgeable of spiritual things. It was just a part of my routine, a part of my life, a part of my, you know, a part of my conscious and when I was about 20, a friend of mine, who later robbed me. But yeah, he, he gave me the, The Tao of Pooh, the book and he said you really got to get into this. This is good stuff. And so I read it and it was like, the old saying, it scratched and itch, I didn’t know I had. Yes. And I read it and I thought wow, it was, it was like the teachings of the Dao were almost contrary to everything, you know, your learning in life, especially as a student, you know, everything, the thing I really hit me was that in life, we’re searching for the great reward, whether it’s in, you know, tradition, you know, kind of like Christian theology or Western theology that, you know, eventually you’re going to reach heaven. You do all these things and then you get it down the road, right? Right. You, you know, you go to the school, you do this thing and then you make your money and then that’s your delayed happiness, you delay gratification. And then that was like, no, no, no, it’s all here right now. Yes. You know, you got to tune into it, right? You just get it, adjust your frequency in life and it’s right here. And that was one of the most powerful things in the world. So I went on to read, you know, a whole bunch of books about it that there was a temple in a Monty that I used to attend and learn from a teacher there. And so it was something I was always into and I kind of faded away from it. It’s almost like you, you learn something and it just becomes part of your muscle memory and you don’t even know you’re practicing it or knowing it. And then recently I was online and I wanted to find a podcast about Taoism to reacquaint myself with the ideas and I couldn’t find anything. So I thought I do podcasts. I’ve done a bunch of successful comedy podcasts. I thought how about I do one myself? I go, but I don’t know enough about it. So maybe I can find somebody really smart that knows about this and I could learn from him and put it out and see what happens. So I found you. I like it.

[23:52] Dr. Carl Totton: So no, not so, that’s the Korean alcohol.

[23:56] Tod Perry: Sijo. Sijo. Sijo. I found you in a luckily you’re here to sit with me. So. The first verse of the Tao De Jing. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Tao is both named and nameless. As nameless, it is the origin of all things. As named, it is the mother of 10,000 things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring. One sees only the manifestations and the mystery itself is the doorway to all understanding. So the Tao De Jing for people who are new is what 88 is it?

[24:52] Dr. Carl Totton: 88 kind of poems or verses? 81. 81.

[24:57] Tod Perry: There we go. We’ve learned something new. 81 and it starts off with the first verse and we’re going to take this apart here for

[25:05] Dr. Carl Totton: people. The Tao that can be told or the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. It’s how it’s written, how it’s frequently translated. And there are many, many, many different translations of those words. But think about your life. Is everything about you reducible to what someone or even you could say?

[25:35] Tod Perry: I surprise myself all the time.

[25:37] Dr. Carl Totton: Every human being is like that. But yet when we dialogue and talk to each other, we’re using words, words which are utterly inadequate to convey who we are, what we’re really experiencing, even what you’re really thinking.

[25:51] Tod Perry: Yeah. There’s no way you could put into words everything that goes through your brain.

[25:56] Dr. Carl Totton: And it’s like your brain is limited by the vocabulary that you have for exactly. It only goes so far. Like there are thoughts you have which are kind of uncategorized, because you don’t have the words for them.

[26:08] Tod Perry: Yes. And you can describe something but you’re very limited.

[26:13] Dr. Carl Totton: You know, you know, think about the most dynamic human being you know, if they’re impossible to translate and even yourself, there’s some things that come out of my mouth sometimes well I don’t know who the hell said it right? So yes. So and also words work to kind of differentiate one thing from the other when really in many ways they are connected. And Lao Tzu who said also in that first chapter, he said the nameless that which can’t be spoken is in fact the beginning of heaven and earth, the nameless. And so Taoism I think is a way to open ourselves up to the possibilities that we are more than what we can just talk about. And so Taoists have always put a huge emphasis on being direct experiences of one’s own nature and the greater nature about us. And by paying attention to that, by being cognizant and just being aware of that, it adds flavor and richness and dynamic experience to something that otherwise can be very frustrating by just trying to reduce ourselves to the spoken word. We are more than what we speak. And the Tao is trying to plumb those depths and make it rich and exciting and allow us each to live fully from that nameless place. That’s what the Tao is all about.

[27:42] Tod Perry: Now let’s see here, do we have a copy where we can read the entire. I have several translations here but yes. It’s real nice. It has a nice picture photograph. Well it’s written in Chinese so it’s not going to be doing it again. Okay wait, now I hear this. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. Exactly what we were speaking. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. Now when I read that, I think of the 10,000 things and it’s kind of like a metaphorical idea for the vastness and the richness of the universe of creation. And I think like the nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. So in my interpretation, the nameless is almost that field, that void. If you think about like the big bang, right? There is nothing and then the mother of 10,000 things, things, the multitude of things, of named things, of unnameable things, all spewed out. And that’s why I see that there’s such a. I feel the Tao is a metaphorical way of describing these big, huge things. And it feels like to me like it’s in alignment with science and everything that empirically people go out and try to learn about the world. The Tao is speaking about it just in a way that anybody can get. Hopefully. Yeah. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. So I think about the big bang. I think about the variations of life, the spectrum that everything exists on. And the part that just gets me is ever desireless one can see the mystery. Ever desiring one can see the manifestations.

[29:37] Dr. Carl Totton: And I’ll tell you how I feel about that and then you give me your opinion.

[29:40] Tod Perry: And I think that desireless one sees the mystery. Like if I come to you and I have my own preset ideas of who you are based on, you know, psychographic data, social status, ethnicity, if I come to you with all those things, I’m

[29:59] Dr. Carl Totton: creating a self-fulfilling prophecy in my own mind of.

[30:04] Tod Perry: And then I’m going to start looking for them for you to validate me in some way. I’m never going to ever get to the root of you, to the truth of you, or learn about you, because I’m only. I’m looking at you with desire and so I’m only seeing the manifestations. Now desireless, if I just sit back and I mirror who you are, whatever, I will gain 10,000 things. It’s about preconceived notions. What’s the term? Self-fulfilling prophecy. And Tao teaches you to step back from that.

[30:40] Dr. Carl Totton: Yes. Which seems impossible. I like that word you used a little while ago, “field.” Tao is very much like a field. You know, if you go out into the countryside and you look at a huge open field that apparently has nothing there, but yet, if we care for that field, or if nature cares for it and provides it with a certain amount of sunlight and oxygen and water, just some very basic elements. After a while, that field will be teeming with thousands of different life forms. There’ll be plants and there’ll be trees and there’ll be animals and there’ll be insects and there’ll be microbes. There’ll be things we can’t even imagine are there by the millions, by the millions, out of this quote empty field. Tao is very much like this so-called empty field, but yet holds the potential for everything. That’s the mystery. Out of nothing, out of mystery manifests the awe. And if we don’t think that, like you said, coming with preconceived notions that, “Oh, I’m going to find this or that,” see, because if we look for just this or that, that’s all we can find. But if we’re open to the fact that this can actually become anything, it’s unlimited, then we just have the power of discovery. Taoers are curious. We just want to learn. And the only way to really learn is to wipe the deck. Keep it clean and allow things to just manifest according to everything’s individual nature, because everything has its own individual Tao. It’s own individual way, but it’s frequently stymied by those expectations that you mentioned. And now, and I guess if you agree with this, we stymied our own development, our own Tao by having these preconceived notions and locking ourselves in the holes and killing

[32:47] Tod Perry: our own potential in a way. We escape from our own freedom, indeed, all the time. Because many people are trying their concept of who I am is based on who I think you want me to be, or whose society thinks I should be.

[33:02] Dr. Carl Totton: “Oh, you’re a male, oh, you’re this, you’re that, therefore you should,” there’s that “should” again, “you should be this way or that way.” But what if your own true nature is not that way? Either you’re going to have to deny your nature or deny other people’s expectations. Now, which one do you choose to do? The Tao, I think, has our back that book of the Tao. It’s like, we call the show that, and Tao has your back. It’s okay to be who you are. And to explore that, I tell people all the time that the Tao is a scientist. But what is a true scientist attempting to do to discover new things and through that process of discovery to find out more about life and about existence? And how does a scientist do that? A scientist conducts experiments. So we as human beings, every day, as these kind of scientists of the Tao, we should be doing experiments every day trying out what we deeply connect with inside and seeing what the results will be. Some things will turn out, some things won’t. But you know, as long as we think that we really are scientists, we either we discover something and benefit from that, or we learn that that was not the way. And then we try something else. And through empirical experiments, we come to find what works for us in each and every living moment knowing that every second is completely different.

[34:54] Tod Perry: And scientists also have a hypothesis, right? They have ideas. And so the purpose of the experiment is to prove or disprove the hypothesis. Right. Now, scientists with the hypothesis is going in with a preconceived notion, right? But based on what’s been done before, but their desires for the truth, not for a specific result, a true scientist, right? It should be. But it should want to prove this. I’ll go do this. But a true great scientist goes, what’s going to happen?

[35:29] Dr. Carl Totton: And if it’s not what I wanted, I will abide by that truth.

[35:35] Tod Perry: That’s why true science is skeptical.

[35:37] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah. They don’t really want to believe in anything from the get go because they’re open to being surprised. And the Taoist is open to being surprised every second. One of my Taoist teachers said that Taoist a real Taoist is curious. And out of curiosity, we do all of these interactions, experiments to try to learn things, to know things. And then when we do, then we can relate to them with compassion. And when you relate to things with compassion, you accept things as they are. They don’t have to fit into any preconceived notions. It just is what it is. And that openness, that compassion. I think it’s part of the day, the virtue, then motivates the down-aging, this book of

[36:31] Tod Perry: virtue. That is the virtue, being able to accept things as they are with compassion.

[36:37] Dr. Carl Totton: And we’re going to get into the day on another show.

[36:40] Tod Perry: You get into that. Let’s see, just to wrap up this. These two spring from the same source, but different name, disappears as darkness. And I’m not sure what that– with the Taoist getting at here. These two spring from the same source, but different name. Everything comes from somewhere. Same source. Everything comes from somewhere.

[37:06] Dr. Carl Totton: But there are things that we can name and label. Those are the 10,000 things, the things that manifest that we can talk about. And then there are other things that are in this kind of void space that allows for potential. There’s a notion in many systems, including Taoism, of something called alchemy. Alchemy means you take a piece of this and a piece of that and separate, they have their own identity. But you put those two things together while you have something brand new. And it’s like the sum of the parts where you have great musicians come together and

[37:43] Tod Perry: something else happens. Exactly. It’s that weird alchemy that unexplained– Exact. –field everybody gets on. That’s the magic.

[37:53] Dr. Carl Totton: And Taoist are into magic, in that sense. Darkness within darkness, the gate to all mystery.

[38:03] Tod Perry: So the mystery, what is the specific mystery they’re speaking of? The mystery is something that is unknown because it hasn’t happened before.

[38:14] Dr. Carl Totton: It is a mystery. And the Tao explicitly allows for the mysterious, the magical to happen all the time. Out of that interaction of things that perhaps were known, springing something that is completely new and different, something that was previously mysterious. But now that it has emerged out of the darkness, now we can appreciate it. And appreciation is a core concept. I believe that permeates this book of Tao, being able to relate to things with compassion, with openness, with humility, is I think something that people sense when they read the Tao, that there’s something humble about this. But at the same time, something magnificent about this. Famous Chinese philosopher Confucius himself. He met Lao Tzu. He was struck dumb. He couldn’t even speak. Later, he said, “Today I met a dragon, the mysterious Lao Tzu.” And that changed his entire thinking. And so the mystery allowing things to, at first, that we don’t quite understand, we don’t get, but allowing them to just develop in its own time, in its own way, that openness to allowing things just to become what they will be is I think a key at the heart of the Tao. And letting things become what they’ll be.

[39:45] Tod Perry: Letting, you know, they always share about going with the flow. It’s like water. And there’s a whole chapter on water in the Tao. Water, it fertilize, it feeds the fields, it allows all life on earth to exist. It doesn’t impose itself on anything. It seeks, in fact, the lowest level, right? It doesn’t try to just rise except esteem, which becomes air. But in its solid form, it actually seeks the lowest path. And it follows gravity. And we’re going to get to that on show, too. Yes, and show, too. So we’ll let that be a teaser for show, too, and we discuss the concept of Wu-wei. Yes, correct. So we’re going to be back next week with another show. My name is Tod Perry and Sijo Carl. Carl Totton. Carl Totton. And yes, so thank you so much for checking out the show and we’ll be back. What’s this Tao all about? Yes. To learn more about the show, check us out online at what’sthisdou.com. Follow the show on Twitter at WhatsThisTao. Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at Tod Perry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters. Wow. [Laughter]